Today’s Word for Wednesday (late, I know; I apologize) was started by a discussion on this meme’s host blog, Yeah, Right…
I know that the topic of suffering is kinda touchy. It always was for me, too. Suffering is very, very real to me, and I can say that it was very, very real suffering that brought me to the Cross. Yes, but that suffering was caused by my sin! It was my sin that made the cross necessary! So I hereby would like to present my stance on the topic of suffering, based on a long study of the character of God revealed in His Word. This is not a matter of “picking and choosing” Scriptures and ignoring others– that does not make sense, because ALL Scripture is inspired by God and it says the same thing through and through, never contradicting itself.
Jean said when certain Scriptures seem to contradict each other, we must pray for clarification and be open. All I have to say is this: it once seemed to me that the Scripture said two different things in places, so I prayed for the clarification. God said, “You have it right in front of You.” The same God wrote every word in this book. He does not contradict Himself! His word is the clarification and the only time it seems otherwise is when we are blinded.
This question has been posed for ages: why does God allow suffering? Through my personal study of the Scripture have I come to this conclusion in my heart: Man allows suffering. There are people more experienced, who have been studying the Scripture longer than I, that I have received insight from. I do not believe there is anything wrong with this, because it is the purpose of the church to search out the Word of God, fellowship and build each other up in this respect.
I have not been spoon-fed any of this; this is the conviction of my heart through many evidences. It does not come from picking and choosing verses in the Bible that fit my perception; I have allowed my perception to be molded by the Scripture as a whole and have challenged all the theories I have heard. Those over me have “taught” me to receive nothing unless the Word of God clearly states it. I believe it has the same Author, so it will always say the same thing through and through, never contradicting itself (that doesn’t mean we interpret the whole by what we already assume!). There are things within the Scripture I do not yet fully understand; but concerning suffering, I am more than convinced that it is in the world because of man’s sin.
“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12)
Death, suffering, evil, is in the world because of SIN! But people have been born blind; why? Because they sinned? No; but death, evil, and imperfection entered this world because of sin. We suffer in the flesh from Adam’s sin (thorns, wasps, mosquitoes, etc.), yes; but we are condemned because of our own sin, unless we repent and trust in Jesus Christ for salvation. And what is so amazing is that Jesus came into this world to work the works of God– to bring healing! By His blood we are cleansed from sin, and by His wounds we are healed of our diseases. (The literal Greek does not have punctuation or verses. I find it at least interesting to have seen this alternate translation from John 9: “Neither this man nor his parents sinned. But that the works of God should be revealed in him, I must work the works of Him who sent me– while it is day.”)
There are some who complain about God because “He allows suffering.” These people should instead recognize that the sin of man brings suffering into this world, and they should be grateful to God that He gives good things to all men, and that He offers salvation to all who believe in His Son! Our God is Good; He does not merely allow suffering; He works all things together for good to those who love Him. He does not cause all things to happen, but He works ALL things together for good to those who love Him! See, if I was not under the grace of God, sufferings and trials (for instance 9/11) would not produce in me patient endurance and strength, but rather fear and anger. Many religious and ethnic groups have been persecuted over the years, but none of them have reacted the way Christians have: with strength. Thus, suffering is no good in of itself.
1 Thessalonians says to give thanks IN all circumstances, not for them. I believe that horrible things that happen on this planet earth have been wreaked on man BY man; it has only happened since the fall of man. God did not send that snake to tempt Adam; this is how I know: James 1 says that God does not tempt (in the Greek this also means test or scrutinize) anyone, but every good and perfect gift is from Him, because His very nature is GOODNESS.
“Unless the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it.” (Psalm 127). The house that fell–God did not tear it down; it fell by itself, because it was built in vain, it was not built soundly, according to the laws of nature which the Author of nature established. God never forces Himself upon people; this is clear when one studies the Scripture to search out the character of God. God offers freedom; freedom cannot be forced upon anyone! One can only RECEIVE a free gift. They could also choose not to, and instead sell themselves into slavery– slavery to sin, and receive the ultimate wages of death.
We give thanks in everything because we know that God is ultimately in control. He does not cause everything that happens to happen, but He works out the good end. We give thanks because He is not defeated; He always leads US in triumph in Christ Jesus. And this is the victory that overcomes the world: OUR FAITH. He has given us faith that can move mountains. We give thanks because nothing changes who God is, not even the bad circumstances. He has given us the victory, but that means there’s got to be a battle!
We pray “Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” Why would Jesus tell us to pray something like that if God’s will was done on the earth automatically? And in the Bible we are given a little glimpse of what heaven is like. Revelation 20-22 tell us that in heaven, there is no more sorrow or dying. We know full well that here on earth, there is sorrow, and there is dying. This tells me that God’s will is not yet done on the earth! Nonetheless, we have hope, because we have faith! We confidently expect that the enemy’s defeat is guaranteed. We give thanks to God because we know, though we do not see, that Satan will soon be trampled under God’s feet, and there will be no more evil! I have looked death and grief right in the face. It is bitter, it is putrid, and it comes straight from the gates of hell. Truth is, man allowed it to come into the world.
I totally agree that God does not cause everything that happens to happen, and that the “good end” is the salvation of souls– that is the whole reason Jesus came! It clearly says in the Scripture that it is God’s will that none should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
“Count it all joy when you fall into various trials…” This same chapter goes on to say that God does not tempt (try or test, in the literal Greek) anyone, but every good and perfect gift comes from Him! These Scriptures tell us that trials will come! Evil things will happen, because sin is in the world. But God miraculously gives us the grace to endure, and this endurance produces proven character– we become stronger! This is our joy, that God is strong in us!
But does this make me thankful for evil? No; it makes me grateful for God’s surpassing grace that strengthens me through the evil. Like 9/11; it was an absolutely horrible situation, and many of God’s people died that day. Exceedingly wicked people caused it to happen, but what they intended for evil, God did work out for good. God did not intend 9/11. God did not cause it to happen. However, because God is God, He was not lost amidst the ruins, and I don’t believe it struck Him by surprise because He is not human like us. I believe that because God is God, He brought victory into that situation and used it to wake people up to see their need for Him, and to see the need to go back to the solid Christian foundation of this nation. For this reason, I will look back and say, “God, I thank you that You are not limited by man’s deeds, and I thank You that what the devil tried to destroy You will revive and You have worked through this incident to bring people to Yourself. In all these troubles, You love us and make us more than conquerors.”
Evil, evil men killed many, many people that day. And many, many people have suffered because of it. But God’s right hand still goes forth to save despite man’s evil deeds! God USED 9/11 to bring people to Himself. That does not make 9/11 good, and it does not mean we need to thank God for 9/11. Rather, we should thank God for WHO HE IS, and that He is not stopped by Satan, not stopped by sin and the hatred of man; God was not stopped by 9/11! Is it the will of God that His children are slaughtered and starving? No! But He works good out of those situations, because as the heathen see God’s strength in His people, they are attracted to it. Thus, God uses very, very evil situations out for a very, very good end: the salvation of souls! God is not stopped by anything! Thank You, God, for everything You are; You reign over all with wisdom, strength, and love. Thank You, God, that Your strength is made perfect in our weakness.
Jesus suffered a great deal; so much more than we could imagine, because HE BECAME SIN on our behalf. The Scripture says that He was made perfect through sufferings. Jesus prayed, “Father, Your will be done.” And He was heard because of His godly fear. God’s will was done, that Christ should suffer to reconcile people to Himself. It does seem that God’s will was Jesus’ suffering! But why was that suffering necessary? Because of man’s sin! God chose not to send punishment upon man, but to send His Son to be punished for man; in this way, justice was still done.
I have seen God work through people’s death, I have seen Him work through tragedy; He saved me through someone else’s tragedy! But was it God’s will that a certain little girl would grow up without a father because he died for someone else? Look at it this way: death is in the world because of sin in the first place, but when it came time for one of two people to die, the righteous man CHOSE to die on behalf of the guilty. Through that situation, un-human love was illustrated, and many souls were saved. See, God brings healing wherever He goes, if only people would receive it! There is a Scripture that says that Jesus could do no mighty work in a certain village because of their unbelief, except that He cured a few sick people.
We tend to think of God as a magician in the sky, and when something bad happens, we say, “Hey, why did You let that happen?” The Bible shows us a God whose nature is incomprehensible to us, yet that does not mean we can’t know what His nature is. (We can know something, or choose to believe it, even though we don’t fully comprehend it. We do that with statistics a lot!) God is a Designer; He designs and sets in order (that’s not a magician). He is a Giver; He gives His design a stewardship and a blessing. He is a Father; He lets us learn from our mistakes, but makes it clear that whatever disaster ensues upon us was not His intention, but the result of ours or someone else’s wrongdoing. He is Good; He can do no wrong. He is Faithful and True; He never changes.
God does have a master plan– but sin, disaster, and suffering are not in His plan except that they will be destroyed. His master plan is the salvation of souls, and that His will (good) be done. Once again, He exercises this plan, not letting any chaos stop Him. We know and wait for the place where righteousness dwells, in the new heaven and new earth. Psalm 37 speaks a lot about the way of the Lord versus the way of man.
For a long time I have challenged all sides of the “suffering” argument, and spent time researching in the Word of God to see if I missed something. But now, I have taken a position, having become fully convinced. I used to think about whether or not God “could have” stopped 9/11 and why He didn’t. Yet I realized that this same logic leads us to ask if God could have stopped Satan from tempting Eve. I came to see through a careful examination of the Scripture (outside of the study of suffering) that God’s nature is not to be a control-freak. So it wasn’t a matter of stopping the tempter; God gave Adam and Eve the ability to choose. It didn’t matter so much that the tempter came as much as that Adam and Eve chose to be tempted! God could not change Adam and Eve’s decision; and God surely did not send the tempter! He did not stop the tempter from coming, but why would He have to? Was it God’s will for Adam and Eve to sin against Him? That doesn’t make sense. Yet, God was not lost, and He worked out a way for us to be saved; not only that, He promised that the glory man once had will be restored! And God has done so much over the thousands of years of mankind’s existence to wake man up to stop sinning. But if man chooses sin, he will REAP THE CONSEQUENCES. God knows the evil heart of man; I don’t believe 9/11 caught Him by surprise. After all, He knew ahead of time what has not yet happened– it’s recorded in Revelation.
This is my argument, based not on what I have been “taught” but on what I have searched and found to be true; not chosen from the multitude of man’s theories, but learned from a careful study of the Word of God and His character revealed therein.
One thing I am so grateful for is the opportunity believers have to openly discuss these things, and the free access we have to the written Word of God! Even though America (yes, even the American church) in many ways is deliberately running away from God, nobody’s stopped us yet!
Closing thought: God does not humble man. He does not use circumstances to humble man. Man can only humble himself. “Humble yourself in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.” (James 4:10)
WOW!! I stumbled upon your blog accidentally (actually providentially) and found it heartwarming, factual, and inspiring! This article hits the mark and is close to my passions (I wrote a book – “THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH: Understanding God’s Will for You”).
Then I started looking at the rest of your site and found all the information about the 5 missionaries! I lived with Jim Elliot when I was a small boy. Recently, I released a book containing transcribed messages of his. These were wire recordings (a forerunner of magnetic tape). The first two of the messages are directly about the Christian life and were addressed to to 7th and 8th graders (“JIM ELLIOT: A Christian Martyr Speaks to You”).
May God richly bless your blogging, all of your ministry, and your life and service for Him.
In Him,
Robert Lloyd Russell
ABUNDANT LIFE NOW
Whew, Alice! You’re gonna wear me out!
Actually, I think it’s good to discuss Christian viewpoints with which we disagree. I rarely find a doctrine that is not based on some scriptural truth, and even when I can’t agree with the conclusions, there is almost always something that can be learned. That said, I have limited time today, but when I find some more, I will respond to this post and your most recent comment on mine.
The only point I’ll make right now is this:
This is not a matter of “picking and choosing” Scriptures and ignoring others– that does not make sense, because ALL Scripture is inspired by God and it says the same thing through and through, never contradicting itself.
Closing thought: God does not humble man. He does not use circumstances to humble man. Man can only humble himself. “Humble yourself in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.” (James 4:10)
While the recommended (and far better) course of action is for man to humble himself, not everyone will voluntarily do this. Does God give up on them? No. He will do whatever it takes to bring a man to his knees, giving him the opportunity to repent.
Here are some scriptures that would appear to “contradict” your statement that God does not humble man. God disciplines those He loves, and if pride is an issue, then that’s what He’ll address – and we know that discipline for the moment seems to be sorrowful (Heb 12:11) – like when Mom and Dad take away our toys because we won’t share.
Mull these over and let me know what you think.
and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, “MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES.” (Hebrews 12:5-6)
Daniel 4:37 “Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise, exalt and honor the King of heaven, for all His works are true and His ways just, and He is able to humble those who walk in pride.”
Psa 18:27 For You save an afflicted people, But haughty eyes You abase.
Isa 10:12 So it will be that when the Lord has completed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, He will say, “I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the pomp of his haughtiness.”
Isaiah 23:8-9 Who has planned this against Tyre, the bestower of crowns, Whose merchants were princes, whose traders were the honored of the earth? The LORD of hosts has planned it, to defile the pride of all beauty, To despise all the honored of the earth.
Isaiah 26:5 “For He has brought low those who dwell on high, the unassailable city; He lays it low, He lays it low to the ground, He casts it to the dust.
2Ki 19:28 ‘Because of your raging against Me, And because your arrogance has come up to My ears, Therefore I will put My hook in your nose, And My bridle in your lips, And I will turn you back by the way which you came.
Isa 13:11 Thus I will punish the world for its evil And the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.
Isa 25:11 And he will spread out his hands in the middle of it As a swimmer spreads out his hands to swim, But the Lord will lay low his pride together with the trickery of his hands.
Jer 49:16 “As for the terror of you, The arrogance of your heart has deceived you, O you who live in the clefts of the rock, Who occupy the height of the hill. Though you make your nest as high as an eagle’s, I will bring you down from there,” declares the LORD.
Mr. Russell: Wow! I am floored and grateful! Thank you so much for your kind words; I know I already thanked you on your own blog.
akaGaGa: Actually, these Scriptures do not contradict that fact; however, I am very glad you pointed them out because I realized I needed to clarify regarding what is translated into English to mean “humble.” I studied this topic a while ago, but failed to clarify in more detail in my post.
God has in many instances ABASED and DISCIPLINED man; He shows Himself Almighty in this respect. God told Nebuchadnezzar that he would lose His kingdom, because He knew that was where Nebuchadnezzar’s pride would get Him. In this respect, God disciplined him, but Nebuchadnezzar had to make the choice to humble himself in SUBMISSION to God. English is a very funny language, because we use the word “humble” to describe both of these.
Peter and Judas also were both abased (really, they brought it on themselves by their works) but only one of them chose to be humble before God and chose His ways over their own. Having one’s pride crushed does not make a man humble; humility is a decision of “your will, not mine.”
We people are funny in that when we lose what we take pride in, we still hold on to our pride a lot of times. But if we call upon the name of the Lord, we can be saved; we can live in His will instead of ours.
Sorry I took so long to get back to this. I was waiting for an email to show up, but I just realized you don’t have that button. Anyhow.
You make an interesting point. I’m no scholar of Greek or Hebrew, so I decided to dig around on the Greek word for humble used in James 4:10, Strong’s G5013. It’s used in several places, but the one that struck me is Matthew 23:12:
Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.
If I understand your point, in the first phrase of this verse God is abasing or disciplining the man, but in the second phrase the man is humbling himself.
Yet humble in both these instances are from the same Greek word G5013, so I don’t see how it can mean two different things or be a translation issue.
The ball’s in your court.
Let me start by saying I do not believe the ball is in my court; this is not a “win” or “lose” issue. Though I believe it is good to work out things through discussion (which can involve clashing) I do not believe that contention or arguments one side against another are Biblical or godly. Nor do I believe that I have the responsibility to prove anything to my own credit. However, I will share what I know, as I believe you either misunderstood or missed the point, and I don’t know whether you have a question or an objection.
It’s not a translation issue; it’s a definition issue. Humility is a DECISION. Nobody on the outside can directly affect another’s WILLPOWER; they can’t make another change their heart and their inward desire. God disciplines man, and man brings bad consequences on himself. But the choice to SUBMIT and CRUCIFY selfish pride can come only from the man himself. “Humble yourself in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.” Every man has the things they take pride in crushed from time to time. But that is not the same as choosing to really crucify the pride he holds in his heart.
This is what Matthew 23:12 would look like translated more literally:
“Whoever puffs his self up (yes, I’m a native Northerner) shall be brought low; and whoever lowers his self shall be lifted up.”
It is not that the word means two different things; it is that the grammar changes in each phrase, thus to change the real-life meaning. See, if someone puffs himself up in something, he will be abased, cast down– that has nothing to do with his will or his attitude! However, if a man DECIDES not to take pride in himself or in his possessions but rather to submit to God’s way, God will lift him up; He will take him to a position where he will be blessed and protected. Even in the storms, he will be safe, because the Lord upholds him. “Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down, for the Lord upholds him with His hand.”
When the disciples asked Jesus to increase their faith, what did He tell them? He basically told them that their faith was up to them. Similarly, God does not make man humble. He disciplines them and makes them low because of their wicked deeds, but He does not make the decision for them to let go of their pride.
Since God’s way is the right way, the way designed for man in the beginning, it really is the RIGHT way; when man goes that way, “it is good” for him. Not always flowery and pretty, because the way of the world is evil and fallen, but it is GOOD because it is done in the Creator’s way; the original pattern.
If you still don’t see or have any qualms, please don’t seek an answer from me; I didn’t write the Book. I can’t make a decision for anyone and I do not believe it is my responsibility to “get people to see it the way I see it.” I can share what I know and understand, but I cannot make the decision for anyone else to believe it in their heart. It’s just like I can’t make anyone believe Jesus Christ rose from the dead; I can show them all the evidence in the world, but I cannot make the decision for them; they must use their God-given will to either accept the facts or to look for some way to still reject the notion that He did rise from the dead.
This is a blog and comments are by all means welcome; I am open to hearing other people’s thoughts, opinions, and understandings, but this is not a message board.
My comment about the ball being in your court was meant to be light-hearted, nothing more. I mistakenly understood from comments your mother has made that disagreement can be a healthy, learning experience among fellow Christians.
I’m sorry that I’ve offended you, and obviously crossed some line between offering comments and treating your blog as a message board. I won’t bother you any more.
Hello, akaGaGa:
I do believe that discussion, even when there is disagreement, can be a healthy, learning experience among fellow Christians. My response was not the result of an emotion or an offense. I am totally open to having a healthy discussion even when there is disagreement, yet I believed I needed to state that there is a difference between that and CONTENTIONS. Therefore I do believe that we should be careful in the way we speak to one another regarding any issue so that we remember it is the Word of God we are discussing and we are not holding a win-or-lose argument between ourselves. It’s not “whose side will win?” but “what is the truth?” I can totally understand persistent questioning (I do it all the time
) and I hope that the rest of the content of my most recent comment made sense to you.
My intention was not to make accusations (again, it was not an emotional response) but just to make a factual statement; I am open to yours and anyone’s comments, yet I would like to be careful not to create this into one of those forums where people post nothing but continual argument. Again–no accusation there, that’s just a statement; if it applies to anyone, I will let them figure it out.
I am a Yankee and I have brothers, so I don’t take offense easily
and am not bothered by disagreements or discussions. I do sometimes struggle with the typical teenage-syndrome “Why don’t people see it? It’s so clear!” but thanks to the wisdom of older folk, I realize that patience and teachable-ness (is that a word?) is important.
Please remember that this is not “your view” versus “my view” and if the discussion stops between us, that doesn’t stop the discussion between us and God.
“God does not humble man. He does not use circumstances to humble man. Man can only humble himself.” I made this statement only after observing the character of God for a long time. In my comments I clarified that what I meant was this: God does not make man humble; He works in circumstances to discipline man, but man has to make the decision for himself to repent and be humble before God. Yet I have gathered that with every comment you are looking for objection– not based on previous study. I have done my best to show that I have already studied all the objections you have thus far presented. As of most of your comments, it was just difficult to see if you were really seeking an answer to this issue or just challenging “my view.” That’s all that I know, and the main reason I left my most recent comment.
Again, I do not intend to make an accusation, because you are my older sister in Christ, yet there is a difference between saying “I’m sorry I’ve offended you” and “I’m sorry you’re offended.” And in my experience, “I won’t bother you anymore” is usually a disguised way of making the other party feel guilty. I may be wrong, but I seemed to read this between the lines. It doesn’t matter to me, because I wasn’t offended at questions or even objections. Still, I just want to be careful not to get into contentions and I want to say what I believe.
One point of unrest within me is the idea you seem to hold that what I “preach” here is “what I have been taught in church.” If you have a problem with church, please seek God some more; if God called you out of a church (which I know He has told many to do) please do not judge those whom He has called into a church, and don’t assume they are brainwashed by a powerful individual in that church; make judgments based on good evidence, not bitterness. Where you got the idea that my comment that I left on your blog was what I heard in church or any one teaching, I do not know, since I do not remember you coming to a service or even talking to any of the leaders and teachers. Hebrews 13:24-25. Does it seem strange to you that multiple people from multiple backgrounds of multiple personalities should study the Word of God and find they have each individually come to the same conclusion? Does it seem strange to you that children of God could dwell together in the unity of the Holy Spirit?
When someone is thanking God basically for the evil things that man has done, and I have the evidence to show that this is not Biblical, I felt the responsibility to say something: that we should rather thank God for who He is and what He has done in the midst of the evil circumstances. As I was writing, so many Scriptures connected with others were in my mind and my sentences, but I did not take the time to cite them all in hopes that people who know the Bible would recognize them. I think that’s how this all got started.